(no subject)

[never_shall_yield]

 Bonjour, mes amis!

...I have no idea if I've said that right. ANYWAY. Valjean and Gavroche had an interesting back-and-forth last night, wherein Gavroche asked Valjean to find his little brothers and help them (thread can be perused here if anyone's interested). I'm totally up for it because it'll give Valjean something to focus on in his new life - plus, there's no way he'd turn down the chance to help a couple of kids. This led to OOC discussion with Lark and Gen, because obviously it impacts Marius in particular with regards his grandfather paying for these kids who weren't his, and whether Marius knew about this, etc. Plus, we'll have to god Gillenormand's (and Mlle Gillenormand's) reaction to being asked about the kids in order to find them, which I don't think should pose problems, but if anyone has one then do say so!

Anyway, I spoke to Kate while the thread was ongoing and she mentioned that in an ideal world, we could find some way to get Azelma away from Thenardier also. If you're still up for it Kate, this is potentially doable! But it does raise issues with the fact that we'd have to basically NPC a character that is still available for apping, PLUS involving Monsieur T who we did have at one time. And Maru - I know Madame is actually dead at this point in canon, but it's her family we'd be playing around with, so obviously want to get input on what  you think about it.

The vague idea is that Monsieur would turn up and try to blackmail Marius as he does in canon, which obvs won't work because the truth is out re: Valjean. Or something else different entirely, depending on what would work - Valjean knows about Azelma vaguely, from seeing her as a kid and in the Gorbeau house. Marius knows about her. Javert probably does (though likely hasn't taken much notice) through knowing T as a criminal. It would need one or some of these guys to decide to help her - or a nudge from Gavroche? - and then figure out a way to do it...but obviously this is quite a big canon digression, involves godding and NPC'ing characters and needs input from people, so we're just kind of throwing it out there to see what people think/if they have ideas.

Ultimate endgame would either have the kids be in a good school, or paid a stipend (probs from Gillenormand, at least for the boys) to live on. Unless Gavroche wants to have them in London Below? 

SO. Are people OK with us working something out? Maru, thoughts on Madame? I guess we'd also have to figure out whether Monsieur actually goes to America after all - I guess since Javert's AU anyway, he could arrest him and stop him, but I hadn't considered that before now - and also what Azelma's NPC'd reaction to all of this would be. Lark, Gen, did I forget anything? Probably lots.

:D?

Comments

[street_sparrow]

Gavroche would gladly bring the boys to live with him in London Below, but possibly it might be best for them to stay in the world they know and go back to something like the pretty good life La Magnon gave them. Even if that entire life was based on her lies.

As for Azelma, Write raises good points about the necessity of godding and going AU, and I'm okay with not doing that if people feel strongly that we shouldn't. (But I would be delighted if it ends up happening, and can absolutely provide Gavroche to nudge it along if need be.)

[never_shall_yield]

I feel like rescuing the boys is pretty easy, and will involve some fun plot stuff for Valjean at least, as he'll be able to wander around Paris with a purpose. And obviously strongarm Javert into helping, because he needs the nudge to be a Better Person. But it makes sense that Paris might be better for them, and seeing as Gillenormand was supporting them anyway, I imagine he could be persuaded to continue.

Azelma - I am totally up for figuring it out! But is more complicated, yep.

[athelstanthescribe]

Also, Gavroche would rather like to prevent Thenardier from going into the slave trade, because the morality of the whole industry aside - Thenardier is really the last person in the world who should be allowed to have absolute control over a dog's life, let alone a human being's.

(Lark, this is what he was attempting to lead towards by telling Marius the truth, and may make another try at later.)

[heartbeneathastone]

Definitely understood! At this point, there is not a lot that would stop Marius from giving Thenardier money, given that even in canon, he knows Thenardier is trying to cheat and blackmail him and he gives it to him anyway. He might be persuaded not to if he can think of something else that would reasonably qualify as helping him, but... I'd have to figure out what that would be. I can't see him tipping Javert off to T's whereabouts, or signing on to help with any kind of trap for him.

[athelstanthescribe]

*pats Marius*

If that part ends up not changing, then so be it. The boys are Gavroche's main focus right now and Azelma after that, and he knows Thenardier will end up doing bad things to innocent people no matter what anybody does.

[heartbeneathastone]

Yeahhh he's a doofus.

[rudderless]

I can't wait until Ep gets to that part of the story. She'll actually be enraged, it's bad enough he treated Eponine as something below a slave but to do that.

[clayforthedevil]

HURRAY! I'm so glad y'all are following up about the Thenardier kids!

My characters obviously have nothing to do with this (plus they're Really Most Sincerely Dead, so they can't) so I can't offer anything except maybe a little research in the direction of Things That Can Happen With Parentless Kids in 1830s France. But I offer that if it would be helpful!

[heartbeneathastone]

...yeah not to be morbid, but this did remind me that... I guess we're assuming the little brothers survived the winter?

[clayforthedevil]

Oh nineteenth century, you are always a land of hope and delight. D:

[athelstanthescribe]

Gavroche is assuming nothing but really, really hoping they're still alive. He did show them a way into a shelter nobody else small enough to get in knew about.

[never_shall_yield]

Lol, true. I always assumed they did because they kind of...take over where Gavroche left off. Part of Hugo making a point about the endless cycle of kids ending up on the street, dying, and then more coming in - unless someone steps in to help. But hey, we could kill one of them! Harsh, but Hugoesque. :D

[never_shall_yield]

It would absolutely be helpful, if you have that info to hand!

[clayforthedevil]

Well I can give a general overview of options off the top of my head, but if you want sources and fine detail I'll need a day or two to go over all that?

[never_shall_yield]

General overview would probs be fine, seeing as Valjean needs a place to start. I'll have to consider how much fine detail he'd know himself, given all the time he spent looking for his sister and her kids.

I imagine checking orphanages and whatnot would be a start. Did they have workhouses in France, as they did in England? He'll check the streets, and ask around obviously. Get Javert to look up any police reports on dead or missing kids (if the police bothered with such things back then), and find out whether Magnon is still in jail.

[farouche_bravoure]

Same! Fantine, Combeferre, and Prouvaire are all available for any help/plot device purposes you might want them for!

[yakalskovich]

I theoretically should have access to Monsieur's journal in order to hand it on, but practically the information has been sunk in the depths of time. I can DM Ben on Twitter and find out! While he is no longer in Milliways, I would have no trouble at all to NPC him in OOMs so he doesn't have to be godded from other journals.

Saving Azelma alongside the nameless little boys would be good; I am sure that Monsieur is just as harsh with her as he is with Éponine in the more central parts of canon. On the other hand, she might not be salvageable; she might prefer dreams of living in French-speaking Louisiana as a slave dealer's daughter to staying in Paris and working her way out of destitution with just a little help and encouragement. Of course, as Monsieur's blackmailing will fall totally flat this time around, she doesn't even get that much.

[heartbeneathastone]

For what it's worth, as I said above, Marius will almost certainly still give Thenardier some money.

[yakalskovich]

Then Azelma has that option, and I somehow feel she would stick with it. Mistreating some poor defenseless human beings the way she had been mistreated would probably appeal to her.

In the meanwhile, Dr. Hannibal Lecter is pumping Gavroche for information about how canon is changing -- he would be interested in helping, given the fact that he generally acknowledged to be the Worst At Helping, he could be easily persuaded to do some spot of dirty work nobody else really wants to touch upon, in regard to Monsieur and/or the remainders of the Patron Minette.

[genarti]

The problem, of course, is that there's so little canonical personality to go on for Azelma -- we know she's mistreated and starved and abused, we know she's quieter and shyer than Éponine, we know she's more willing than her older sister to stick with their parents (which may be personality or age or both), and... beyond that, it's mostly guesswork, yeah? Maybe she's got something of her dad's self-centered cruelty, maybe she's just cowed and clinging to the only constants she has, maybe she goes along to America hoping for a fresh start, maybe something else, I dunno. Which is fine for a fic, but in RP gets into the awkward territory of godding characterization for a character that someone might want to app.

As far as I'm concerned, at least, my hope for Cosette's part in this is to avoid having to NPC or handwave anything too detailed regarding Azelma, whether or not we rescue her. Because: laziness!

(As for Lecter, uh, I guess that's up to whether any of the people who are capable of letting him through to Paris would be willing to go for that! I think I can safely say that all the Amis would be going HELL NO NEVER about the entire idea, but they're also not people who can open the door for him anyway.)

[heartbeneathastone]

Ditto on NPC laziness as regarding Azelma. :D

And Marius will probably be disinclined to just let people he doesn't know well into Paris-- and certainly if the amis say that he shouldn't.

[never_shall_yield]

Fwiw, I'm very interested in the idea of Azelma not wanting to be saved, because it's a nice twist rather than 'everyone wants a better life'. But as Gen says, and the reason this post is up at all, is because NPC'ing an appable character is shaky ground.

On the other hand, Valjean is AU now he's still alive, so anyone who did app her would be able to play her however they wanted. Also, if she didn't want to be saved and Marius gives Thenardier money, we wouldn't have to worry about the work of NPC'ing her in future times, because she'd be off in America with her dad.

[genarti]

She could also always take her own share of money, shoot a suspicious and jealous eye at everybody, and vanish. With her dad to be a slaver in America? On her own in France? To make a better life for herself? To embark on a life of crime? Out of 19th-century-melodramaesque coincidental circumstances that prevented her from getting in touch with them again? WHO KNOWS. Possibly a future mun, if one appeared, but not our characters! That might be a good way to give her the means of some more opportunities without specifying what she does with them.

And yes, of course, any hypothetical future mun could certainly play her as being from a different AU anyway. But we've been generally glossing over the differences that make characters from different AUs, including bookverse/musicalverse, so I'd like to leave room for no one to ICly notice the difference in case a hypothetical mun did want to play things that way.

[heartbeneathastone]

Yeah, maybe Marius can be persuaded to make sure that she receives a share of money separately from Thenardier's, and then we can just say they both go off with their money and no one knows if it's together or separately or what happens to them.

[genarti]

If Cosette is -- GASP -- actually involved and talked to, and if at this point she has any memory of the Thénardiers back, she could certainly push for that. Not that she'd want to meet him or have much of anything to do with them, and her feelings on Azelma and Éponine would be solidly It's Really Complicated, but she would point out that there's no reason to trust him to use the money for anyone else's benefit. (And she's Valjean's daughter enough, and bourgeois enough, to be able to roll with "let's just shove some money at them and then never see each other again awesome" as an approach under certain circumstances, like these.)

[harryhotspur]

I like that! And I like that as a conversation for them to have!

[rudderless]

I'm on semi-hiatus but am gradually coming off of it in about a week or two and would be thrilled to help out!

Eponine is pro-anything that thumbs her nose at her father in some oblique way, and she'd naturally support Gav's ideas in saving their siblings,though the whole idea of there being another her out there is still kind of a boggleworthy subject.

((I have missed so much but am following along as best I can with everything, especially OOMs)).